Jurnal DSG6

[C Z R]

ziceai ca e in jur de 300 ron, cum ai ajuns la 860 ? lumineaza-ne si pe noi :Driver:

[istef]

Nu poate sa coste 300 ron, numai uleiul costa 90 ron * 6 litri = 540 ron. Se mai adauga filtrul si manopera si cam ies banii.

[B-76-WAR]

ziceai ca e in jur de 300 ron, cum ai ajuns la 860 ? lumineaza-ne si pe noi :)

@istef are dreptate 6l ulei 568 ron, filtru ulei 83 ron, test diagnoza 29 ron(la cerea mea), 180 ron manopera = 860 ron cost final :lol:

[stefanpaul]

cine vrea sa isi schimbe uleiul fara sa mai plateasca manopera sa ma contacteze.. am pompa de umplut cutia dsg,chei tot ce trebuie...

[Unforgiven]

Salut oameni buni si sarbatori fericite!

Vin si eu cu vesti legate de cutia DSG. Am un passat b6 2l 170caluti. Prima oara am experimentat o neplacere a cutiei dupa 40k km. Cam un an jumatate dupa achizitionarea masinii.

Cutia s-a blocat, a ramas in treapta de viteza in care eram si s-au aprins beculetele cu P R N D S. Am oprit masina, repornit-o si si-a dat drumul. Am fost la Porsche si dupa o verificare mi-au spus ca nu stiu exact de la ce s-a intamplat. Dupa o luna (prin luna iulie) a inceput sa se blocheze din nou, de data asta ceva mai frecvent. Am fost la resoftare, degeaba. Dupa o saptamana blocajele au aparut din nou.

Mi-au comandat un megatronic care a venit dupa o luna. Din luna august pana in luna noiembrie am avut in jur de 15 intrari in service cu masina. Mi-au schimbat de 3 (TREI) ori Megatronicul. DEGEABA.

Pe drive (D) nu mai puteam merge ca se bloca dupa primul km masina. O tineam doar pe sport (S). In luna octombrie mergeam deja pe manual intrucat incepuse sa se blocheze si pe sport.

Le-am facut o sesizare de 3 pagini de A4 si dupa 3 zile am primit telefon sa vin sa-mi schimbe cutia. Asta in luna noiembrie. In luna octombrie mi-a expirat garantia. Contractul de service a fost deschis din vara. Solutionarea a avut loc dupa 4 luni de batut drumul la service.

Le-am explicat celor de la service de cand ma aflam la a doua schimbare de megatronic ca sigur nu e de la el, daca deja 2 megatronice sunt schimbate si problema persista. E la mintea cocosului.

In fine dupa nervi multi si timp pierdut, au reusit sa rezolve problema. Acum cutia e ok, dar cred ca mai trebuie calibrata. Pe sport este mult mai agresiva decat inainte. Daca sunt singur in masina este ok, imi place asa brutala, dar daca mai am pasageri ii bruschez prea tare.

Ce este mai deranjant este ca la relanti am o vibratie in toata masina, cineva mi-a spus ca ar putea fi de la un injector sau pompa de injectie. Cei de la porsche nu au reusit sa depisteze problema. Eu am o vaga impresie ca ei stiu despre ce e vorba dar vroiau sa-mi inchida dosarul sa nu-mi faca reparatia pe garantie.

Cu toata ca am avut aceste probleme cu cutia DSG tot nu m-as mai intoarce pe manuala. Sunt totusi dezamagit de fiabilitatea passatului. Primele probleme cu el au inceput la cateva luni de la achizitionare , frana de mana s-a blocat, mi-au schimbat tot circuitul electric.

Optiunea de AH (auto hold) este un must si imi pare rau ca Audi nu a integrat la cutia lor aceasta optiune.

Masina nu a fost forjata, alergata, s-a mers decent cu ea, motiv de ingrijorare in legatura cu cutia. Daca o alergam ii gaseam o scuza, asa nu-mi explic cu o cutie sa se duca dupa 40k km.

Numai bine si drum lipsit de incidente!

[C Z R]

Nu cred ca putem spune din asta ca DSG-ul nu e o cutie fiabila. Eu mai degraba as da vina pe passat (nu te supara), stiu ca passat-ul 2.0 tdi are muuuulte probleme :)

Am implinit si eu 30.000 km si merge fara probleme (si o forjez zilnic :D)

Este totusi adevarat ca prima serie de DSG-uri a fost cu probleme la mecatronic dar mai toti si-au rezolvat pe garantie din cate am citit pe-aci.

Modificat 16 Decembrie, 2009 de Dreadfull

[xht20]

dreadfull am vazut cu totii cum o forjezi, mai ales in seara asta, cealalta seara :).

ot: Unforgiven, mie la 6000km mi-a facut probleme cutia, senzorul de turatie era defectat. Nu mai detaliez acum ca am facut-o la momentul potrivit. Parerea mea: dupa o anumite experiente cu mai multe masini am ajuns la concluzia ca pana la urma sunt niste fiare. Nu ne putem astepta sa dureze pe viata, sa nu se strice niciodata. Sunt niste piese, produse/fabricate ca sa se defecteze dupa un anumit interval de timp. Cel mai bine, cand cumparam o masina, sa urmarim sa obtinem o garantie cat mai buna, si in rest Dumnezeu cu mila. Asa ca nu are rost sa te superi ca se defecteaza. Si noi, oamenii, ne "defectam". Ne ducem la doctor. Asa si cu masinile, le ducem la service. Totul se repara

[C Z R]

da teff (si scuzati offtopicul) dar nu e bine nici asa ...

pai ce facem, trecem pe suzuki ca avem 7 ani garantie ?

eu am incredere ca dsg-ul ramane totusi cea mai mare "descoperire" :icon_thumright:

iar senzorul de turatie e un senzor amarat, 100-200 ron :D

Modificat 17 Decembrie, 2009 de Dreadfull

[jaymz]

Nu cred ca putem spune din asta ca DSG-ul nu e o cutie fiabila. Eu mai degraba as da vina pe passat (nu te supara), stiu ca passat-ul 2.0 tdi are muuuulte probleme :icon_thumright:

Am implinit si eu 30.000 km si merge fara probleme (si o forjez zilnic :D)

Este totusi adevarat ca prima serie de DSG-uri a fost cu probleme la mecatronic dar mai toti si-au rezolvat pe garantie din cate am citit pe-aci.

Tind sa te contrazic. Ai avut noroc pana acum si iti doresc sa ai si in continuare, dar cutia dsg nu este in nici un caz ceva ce se poate numi fiabil. Nu e de vina Passat-ul, s-a intamplat pe zeci- sute de Golfuri, Audi si alte modele care o au, fie ca se cheama S_Tronic sau mai stiu eu cum. Banuiala mea e ca au fost niste greseli de proiectare din partea VW sau Audi, din care numai una a fost recunoscuta oficial doar in State, si asta dupa ce au fost dati in judecata. Nu vor sa le recunoasca pentru ca ar insemna schimbarea intregii cutii in toate cazurile, si ar pierde o gramada de bani. Sunt o gramada de post-uri pe forumuri VW si Audi din state cu problemele la aceasta cutie.

Mi-a cazut si mie mechatronic-ul si l-am schimbat in vara, insa nu am sperante prea mari nici cu cel nou deoarece simt ca nu functioneaza in parametri normali nici acum (pierde putere cand schimba din 1->2 etc.)

Probabil problemele se manifesta la multi, dar din cauza ca sunt vizibile doar in anumite conditii( de ex. atunci cand se circula la temperaturi mai ridicate), sau din cauza ca multi nu au mai condus alte masini cu DSG care aveau norocul sa functioneze si au senzatia ca asa trebuie sa mearga, nu sunt prea multe plangeri.

Dupa tot ce am experimentat/citit nu mi-as mai cumpara o masina cu DSG si nici nu as recomanda-o nimanui.

[Michael]

DSG-ul nu e proiectat de grupul VAG, ci de o firma specializata: Borg Warner. Si eu am avut o probema "capitala" cu cutia. Ca functionare, este superba si as opta oricand pentru o astfel de cutie. Ca fiabilitate, este evident ca mecanismele complexe pe care le inglobeaza o fac mai expusa riscului defectarii. Si, deci, daca as mai opta pentru o astfel de cutie, as face-o cu oarecare teama. Totusi, utilizarea pe scara larga a acestei cutii ma face sa cred ca problemele majore sunt situatii exceptionale. De fapt, in opinia mea, problema acestei cutii nu este fiabilitatea teoretic mai scazuta, ci faptul ca atunci cand se defecteaza practic nu se poate interveni in cutie, ceea ce face ca ea sa fie mai costisitoare ca o cutie manuala din punct de vedere al costurilor de reparatie. Iar o cutie manuala, chiar daca o inlocuiesti cu totul, este si mai ieftina. Altfel spus, nu este neaparat o problema de defectare mai frecventa, ci de costuri mai mari de reparatie in cazul defectarii ei.

[C Z R]

DSG-ul daca are probleme atunci are pe electronica, nu pe mecanica ! Si aici pot sa vin cu muuuulte argumente :wub:

[Unforgiven]

Nu mi se pare normal sa stau cu masina in service 4 luni de zile dupa un an jumatate de la achizitionarea ei. Nu este totusi o masina nici ieftina si nici o chinezarie. Pentru cati bani am dat pe ea, ma asteptam totusi la o masina fiabila, o masina nemteasca. In ziua de azi se pare ca se merge mai mult pe idea de masini cosumabile si costuri de productie cat mai mici.

Dar consumatorul ce a platit pentru un produs suporta consecintele acestei ieftineli. Mai tot ce se vinde pe piata azi parca ar fi programate sa se strice dupa ce ies din garantie. Sunt dezamagit de passat.

Argumente de ce pica cutia DSG, de ce are probleme cu electronica mi se par inutile. Cutia TREBUIE sa functioneze! Ai cumparat un produs sa te folosesti de el, nu sa auzi scuze de ce executantul si proiectantul au gresit sau nu au facut treaba buna.

Nu este normal sa nu pot pleca cu masina noua din tara de teama sa nu raman cu ea in pana. Am un prieten care a plecat cu passatul, ~30k km pana in austria si a ramas cu ea in pana ca i-a picat un injector. Dupa reparatie a plecat in grecia si a ramas iar cu ea in pana ca i-au mai picat 2 injectoare si era pe insula. iar pe feribot nu te lasa cu masina remorcata decat pe trailer. Si nu e singurul cu astfel de probleme.

Acum sunt plecat din buc si am avut ocazia sa-i fac proba la cutie pe drum lung prima oara dupa ce am schimbat-o. Pe drive cutia schimba ok, pe sport cred ca trebuie recalibrata. cum pui piciorul pe acceleratie ai impresia ca ai facut kick-down. bruscheaza destul de urat.

o cutie exceptionala daca ar fi si fiabila. mai au de studiat baietii.

[C Z R]

chestia cu 4 luni e datorata service-urilor noastre ... in germania ar fi gata in 3 zile

[Johnny Bravo]

chestia cu 4 luni e datorata service-urilor noastre ... in germania ar fi gata in 3 zile

Tot nu este scuzabil. Pretul masini include si o mica suma ce se duce spre partea de service. In contabilitate parca se cheama provizion si se adauga la pretul de vanzare. Sevice-ul fiind unul din retea, ar fi trebuit sa rezolve treaba repede, doar d-aia te obliga sa mergi la ei cat esti in garantie, ca cica se pricep cel mai bine...

[istef]

Problema service-urilor nu mai tine de VW. Sunt convins ca si la alte reprezentante din Romania se intampla acelasi lucru ca la VW.

[Michael]

Eu aici vin cu un contraexemplu. Eu am dus masina in service pentru diagnostic la cutie si a doua zi am ridicat-o. Iar cutia a venit intr-o saptamana din Germania si a fost montata imediat, tot de pe o zi pe alta.

[Unforgiven]

Eu aici vin cu un contraexemplu. Eu am dus masina in service pentru diagnostic la cutie si a doua zi am ridicat-o. Iar cutia a venit intr-o saptamana din Germania si a fost montata imediat, tot de pe o zi pe alta.

La mine au spus initial la diagnostic ca e doar o chestiune de resoftare. Dupa alte blocari ale cutiei, au zis ca e megatronicul, dupa care ca megatronicul mecatronicul nu era bun si trebuie altul si tot asa, am schimbat 3 in total.

Apoi dupa N drumuri si nervi au acceptat sa-mi schimbe cutia. dupa spusele lor, cutia era in parametri si nu prezenta nici un defect pentru a fi schimbata. Dupa schimbarea cutiei erorile au disparut.

Probabil la tine cutia a semnalat un defect din start.

Modificat 21 Decembrie, 2009 de Kostas

[overseas]

Ca utilizator de DSG cca 48k inclusiv in aceasta iarna grea, vreau sa-mi declar satisfactia vizavi de aceasta solutie tehnica. Merg 15% in oras si restul in afara, combinat cu ceva drum de tara. Nu am avut niciodata nevoie de modul manual, nici macar pe ud/ gheata/ noroi. Frana de motor face si in D dar mai ales in S. Am mers si pe zapada asta nasoala din cartiere tot pe automata si s-a comportat exemplar. In oras pe gheata si polei am mers in S fiindca face o frana de motor brutala si tine calutii in frau :blink: Am urcat panta de 40 de grade cu gheata si zapada (drum de tara) in D, cu ceva demaraj si cauciucuri de iarna.

Singura problema reala: dealerii care nu stiu sa vanda aceasta cutie automata si in general nu stiu sa prezinte partea tehnica.

[Tilu]

VW DSG (direct shift gear transmission) and Audi S-tronic FAQ

Introduction

This article discusses the basic pro/cons of the DSG, how a DSG works, and common problem areas with the DSG. S-tronic is Audi's name for DSG. At the bottom are some review videos of the DSG. To differentiate between the DSG and a conventional planetary gear-torque converter automatic transmission, I'll call the conventional auto a slushbox. Tiptronic is a term used by VW/Audi for some slushbox and DSG and refers only to an automatic transmission that lets you shift the gears with the shifter. Below is a cutaway showing the manual transmission type gears and dual clutch system of the DSG.

Summary

VW's direct shift gearbox (DSG) is a 6 speed dual clutch manual-like transmission that automatically shifts. It has manual transmission like internals with a "brain/valve body" called mechatronics which shifts it. Either VW/Audi or Borg Warner makes VW/audi DSG transmissions. It's better than a conventional automatic transmission and great on turbo cars because the more constant power keeps the turbo spooled up. The main disadvantage is that it harder to modify, heavier, and gives slightly lower fuel economy compared to a traditional manual transmission. The fluid and filter should be changed every 40,000 miles.

The VW DSG was first introduced to the US in 2003 with the model year 2004 New Beetle TDI (also introduced in the Audi TT). The gasoline NB still used a slushbox for that year. Slushbox equipped VW with automatic transmissions had a rolling change to DSG across the full VW model line over the years. Starting with the 5th generation VW in 2005.5, all automatic transmissions in North America with TDI engine were DSG. Gassers and European 5th generation TDI like the Tiguan, Touareg, and Passat without the DSG option may still use a slushbox. Steering wheel paddle shifters for TDI with DSG were introduced in 2010 but you can retrofit them to earlier 5th generation cars and new 6th generation cars, see 1000q: paddle shifter steering wheel retrofit for more details. The stock gear selector looks like a normal automatic gear selector with "park, drive, sport, etc.", and a manual shifting portion.

There is a new 7 speed DSG for front wheel drive (transverse layout) VW but it's only available in Europe on the Golf/plus with lower output engines. This is because it's limited to 184 lb-ft of torque. The biggest change is the extra gear and the change from a wet clutch to a dry clutch. More gears and the dry clutch should give greater performance and fuel economy but dry clutches aren't cooled by fluid and could have limits on launch mode. The torque limit means it won't appear on US TDI engines anytime soon. In any case, TDI have such a wide torque band that a 6 speed DSG is more than sufficient to work very well. There are also DSG for longitudinal engines but none of these are used in VW TDI in North America.

Here is a video showing how the Porsche PDK (Porsche Doppel Kupplungen, Porsche double klutch) dual clutch transmission works. It was developed independently from Borg Warner but uses the same principles so the video explanation also works for S-tronic and DSG transmissions.

Pros/cons of the DSG

A DSG is a great transmission compared to a slushbox. If you leave it in automatic mode, it's identical in ease of use. It's lighter and has less parasitic power loss. You should also notice faster shifting and better fuel economy than a slushbox. A DSG can also deliver better car performance and smoother shifting than a manual transmission. In fact, the newest generation of high performance sport cars are faster when equipped with dual clutch transmissions, everything else being equal. Since the mechanism never misses a shift and the clutches are almost always engaged, DSG give more consistent power delivery, especially in turbo cars. In a manual transmission turbo car, you normally lift off the throttle during shifts to rev match the engine, interrupting power delivery. Because a DSG only has a tiny gap in power delivery, the engine is kept under load which keeps the turbo spooled up. The DSG also eliminates driver inconsistency in performance shifting.

A DSG is also good for drivers with knee problems or family members who don't want a manual (or you can't stand their shifting)! There are some some quirks with a DSG and these are discussed in further detail below.

Despite these advantages, I still feel that a manual transmission is better for a skilled driver. If nothing else, a manual transmission gives the driver the ability to maximize the fuel economy which is one of the strongest points of a TDI. It also costs less and is more tolerant of higher level power upgrades or poor maintenance. A DSG needs consistent fluid changes every 40,000 miles. Conventional manual transmission gear oil can go anywhere between 40-80,000 under normal use. Many independent garages and even some dealerships are not experienced with the service requirements of the DSG because it's still relatively new. A DSG will also not let you rev to engine redline because it will shift slightly below redline.

Some other disadvantages of a DSG are potentially lower reliability, higher replacement costs, and heavier weight compared to a manual. In theory, the DSG on the TDI should give better performance but the increased weight and greater parasitic power loss take away performance compared to a manual. The clutches in a DSG are lubricated in fluid and this creates greater parasitic losses than a dry clutch. So far, the real world difference in performance between manual and DSG (when mated to the VW/Audi 4 cylinder gas/diesel engines) isn't statistically significant and is well within variations in driver, environment, and engines.

Power upgrades and the DSG

A potential con for those who like to modify their cars is the lack of aftermarket parts and a potential limit on torque. When raising power levels, one of the major limiting factors (other than tire traction) is the clutch. While conventional components can be changed to a kit that will hold higher power levels, it's a lot harder in a DSG transmission. The issue is not DSG transmissions in general but how much power the clutch packs can hold and the limits of each specific DSG model. The DSG transmission for the TDI hasn't had confirmed failures due to increased power but the official limit for early DSGs is about 258 lb ft (350 nm). Stock torque is about 170-236 lb-ft, depending on the engine. Many people have exceeded 258 lb-ft but no one knows long term reliability at these power levels. HPA motorsports built some high power testers for VW and they experienced no unusual problems. And of course, how much you actually use that available power and towing/racing use will also effect transmission and fluid longevity. HPA recommends fluid changes every 10,000 miles on high powered modified cars. The new 7 speed DSG used on the Audi S5 can hold up to 406 lb-ft but it's used with a longitudinal engine, not the transaxle used on the 4 cylinder TDI. The new 7 speed DSG on the Euro Golf/plus is for small output engines and is limited to 184 lb-ft.

DSG transmission reliability and common problems

A DSG transmission is a great piece of technology but it's still relatively new compare to a manual transmission. Because of this, a factory extended warranty could cover any potential problems that won't show up until some miles and age have accumulated on the car. I would rather put aside a general emergency fund for home/auto/health repairs, but it's an option. Just carefully read what an extended warranty covers and terms because the contracts are often worded to exclude many repairs, certain "wear parts", or exclude items which don't have a strict maintenance history!

Below are some of the more common problems reported. If you do report a drivability or safety problem to the dealer, some will tell you to keep driving it because the part is on backorder. If the car has a drivability or safety issue, demand a loaner car or rental car and file a report with the NHTSA. Driving an unsafe or defective car is unwise and this can be a dealer trick to avoid lemon law criteria in some states.

Recent update: VW has extended the warranty on all DSG or S-tronic transmission for 10 years/100,000 miles, transferable to subsequent owners for 2006-2009 model years. This covers the R32, Jetta, GTI, Eos, and Audi TT and A3 and only applies to a "limited production range", whatever that means. It's unrelated to the recall mentioned below. To see if your past repair or current car is covered you have to call the VW loyalty center at 1-800-444-8982.

DSG NHTSA investigation

The National highway transportation safety administration (NHTSA) recently opened an investigation on power loss and jerky power delivery of the DSG. While the number of DSG with problems is small, the problems reported which opened the investigation are serious and could result in a crash. This investigation is not limited to TDI, it's for all VW/Audi DSG. The NHTSA action number is PE09035 opened July 17, 2009 and currently covers 2008-2009 models.

While some DSG have a small delay in clutch engagement and power delivery from a full stop, this is considered normal and can be expected and compensated for by the driver. The more serious problems involve false neutrals for no reason, shifting into neutral by itself, and not being able to shift back into drive from neutral while at speed. These sorts of problems are not unique to DSG transmissions or VW since they can occur on any car with a defective part or faulty design. However, there are many more anecdotal problems reported than just the cases which resulted in the opening of the investigation. Ultimately, the opening of an investigation means only that there are problems reported which merit further investigation and this should currently be the only conclusion which one should draw from this action.

Temp sensor recall

On Aug 2009, VW started a recall on 2009 and 2010 DSG on the temperature sensor. Models affected are built between August and September 2009. A faulty temperature sensor can result in illuminated warning lamps in the dashboard and the transmission may shift into neutral. It appears that both sensors below are in the same assembly. This is probably responsible for some of the flashing PRNDS light incidents. Below are some descriptions of the temperature and rpm sensor.

A low battery (also check voltage regulator or alternator) can cause flashing PRND or PRNDS lights and DSG shifting problems. If you get the blinking shifter PRND PRNDS light and false neutrals (transmission shifts into neutral by itself) then you could have a bad transmission temperature sensor as mentioned above. Here is an example of a stuck neutral on a 2009 Jetta TDI and a similar problem on a 2007 Audi A3

[overseas]

"A DSG will also not let you rev to engine redline because it will shift slightly below redline."

Asta e o gluma ? Daca o calci, schimba pe rosu chiar in D, nu mai spun in S.

Ca user de DSG, articolul ala nu imi aduce multe noutati si nu dovedeste o cunoastere practica a functionarii cutiei.

[mejdelicious]

la mine nu intra pe rosu,este exact cum scrie acolo...schimba exact sub zona rosie,indiferent cat de tare o calc.

[overseas]

Ai incercat si in S ?

Vad ca ai cutie din 2006, a mea e din 2008.

Sa mai verific odata, dar eu eram stresat ca daca o calc se duce pe rosu...

[mejdelicious]

IN s NU STIU SA ZIC SIGUR DAR II FAC MAINE UN TEST SA VAD,SAU POATE NU O FI ACEEASI CUTIE DIN 2006 CU AIA DIN 2008(AI CUMVA DSG 7?)

[overseas]

Prieteni, stiam eu ca nu vorbesc aiurea. Am calcat-o dimineata asta si mi-a schimbat pe rosu peste 5000. In D ! In S nu sunt curios sa incerc :blah_:

Cutia mea e DSG in 6 trepte in baie de ulei, dar masina e din 2008. Mai face niste chestii: la vale sesizeaza daca accelerez (caz in care schimba in treapta superioara) sau daca iau piciorul de pe acceleratie (caz in care face frana de motor pana pe la 3000, dar daca apas din nou putin putin schimba din nou intreapta superioara).

[Tilu]

Am incercat si eu,imi schimba imediat sub zona rosie.