Masini electrice - solutia schimbarilor climatice sau marketing?!

[dercos]

Intre timp, dupa cum am anticipat cu ceva timp in urma, octombrie este din nou o luna mai rece decat normalul in tara noastra, chiar daca l-am raporta la perioada 1961-1990 si nu la perioada de referinta recenta. Situatia este fara precedent in ultimii ani si este foarte interesant ca nimeni nu discuta acest subiect.

 

@Dolfin imi aduc aminte de discutiile legate de epuizarea petrolului si a gazelor naturale, estimari facute de oameni de stiinta, dar care nu aveau nici cea mai mica legatura cu realitatea. Aceiasi oameni de stiinta ne ameninta acum cu o ''catastrofa climatica''. Ce va fi diferit, de data aceasta? Autovictimizarea populatiei functioneaza mult mai bine, aceasta fiind mult mai receptiva la indoctrinarile diverse si nu mai are capacitatea de a-si pune diverse intrebari. Sunt toti oamenii de stiinta obiectivi in ceea ce afirma?

[Sparkyson]

1 hour ago, dercos said:

Aceiasi oameni de stiinta ne ameninta acum cu o ''catastrofa climatica'

 

 

Dar sunt aceeasi?

 

Quote

https://www.britannica.com/topic/peak-oil-theory

 

The first person to advance the peak oil theory publicly was Marion King Hubbert, an American geoscientist who worked as a researcher for the Shell Oil Company from 1943 to 1964 and taught geophysics at Stanford University and other institutions. At a meeting of a branch of the American Petroleum Institute in 1956

 

Quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicting_the_timing_of_peak_oil#Hubbert's_model

 

There was a consensus between industry leaders and analysts that world oil production would peak between 2010 and 2030, with a significant chance that the peak will occur before 2020. 

 

Nu sunt chiar aceeasi oameni de stiinta, nu? Analistii si liderii industriali nu sunt chiar oameni de stiinta, nu?

Teoria cu epuizarea petrolului era propusa din interiorul industriei producatoare de petrol, iar cea cu schimbarea climatica de catre cercetatori de mediu.

 

1 hour ago, dercos said:

octombrie este din nou o luna mai rece decat normalul in tara noastra

 

Așa functioneaza schimbarile climatice. Valori fara precedent, extreme tot mai extreme.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/cold-winter-global-warming-polar-vortex/a-56534450:

Quote

Their claim — which has been repeatedly debunked by climate scientists — is that extremely cold weather shows that carbon dioxide emissions are not warming the Earth.

In fact, the effects of global warming may even have favored the extremely cold temperature.

 

Modelele climatice sunt foarte complexe si greu si pentru cercetatori sa le inteleaga.

Este extrem de simplist sa crezi ca doar pentru ca o zona se raceste inseamna ca toate sunt la fel.

 

https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/cold-weather-and-climate-change-explained/:

Quote

A warming Arctic, and the ‘cold blob’ in the North Atlantic, are bringing colder weather further south

 

In the past 30 years, the Arctic has warmed about twice as fast as the rest of the world, a phenomenon known as ‘Arctic amplification’. Scientists believe that with less bright white sea ice to reflect away the sun’s rays, the Arctic is getting warmer, faster than the rest of the planet.

Warmer Arctic air has shrunk glaciers and melted away a significant amount of sea ice. This has led to what some scientists are cutely calling a ‘cold blob’ – a patch of the North Atlantic ocean southeast of Greenland where glacier meltwater is cooling the ocean. This cold patch has messed with the Atlantic Ocean currents that underpin the Gulf Stream – which a new study has shown is weaker than it’s been in 1000 years.

 

[dercos]

Esti liber sa crezi ce vrei si in cine vrei. Evident, toti oamenii de stiinta sunt independenti si nu depind de nicio entitate. Si chiar daca ar depinde de o astfel de entitate financiara, universitara, politica, de mediu samd cu siguranta ar fi impartiali. Pentru ca sunt oameni de stiinta si ei cred in valorile stiintei.

 

PS Octombrie nu a avut nicio extrema, de altfel, daca te uiti la intregul an 2021, Romania nu a avut nicio extrema climatica, iarna a fost blanda, iar vara nu a avut valuri de caldura iesite din comun, primavara a fost primavara (fara ca luna mai sa fie o luna de vara ca in ultimii ani), toamna toamna (fara ca septembrie sa fie o prelungire a verii ca in ultimii ani). Cu alte cuvinte a fost un an relativ normal.

Pana la a analiza zonele polare sau de aiurea, ar fi bine sa cunoastem realitatile locale.

 

 

[Sparkyson]

Nu traim pe aceeasi planeta cu restul tarilor?

Cum putem sa ne uitam doar la "realitatile locale" cand vine vorba de clima planetara?

 

Cu siguranta nu crezi in impartialitatea oamenilor de stiinta angajati la companiile petroliere.

Daca ai crede ar zice ca esti prea credul. Banii indoaie principiile.

[kolfleading]

On 10/15/2021 at 6:05 PM, Dolfin said:

Armata Austriaca se pregateste de black out, are si un video in care arata ca este pregatita.

Blackout - ein weiträumiger, eventuell gar europaweiter Stromausfall

 

...si inca nu a venit iarna!

 

Aia a fost o piesa de teatru.

Aici versiunea integrala, inclusiv pasajele muzical-artistice:

 

 

[dercos]

Australia va folosi in continuare surse de energie fosila, desi au soare si teren nesfarsite. Aia e o tara dezvoltata, dar care nu pare prea interesata de "apocalipsa climatica". Sper ca Europa sa faca ceva sa contracareze CO2-ul rezultat.  Asa nu se mai poate 🙂

https://www.g4media.ro/australia-impotriva-decarbonizarii-ministrul-resurselor-nu-ne-vom-inchide-minele-sau-centralele-noastre-de-carbune-vom-continua-sa-avem-piete-timp-de-zeci-de-ani.html

[kolfleading]

Quote

Aileen Getty and Rebecca Rockefeller Lambert will never have to worry about having a roof over their heads or going hungry, thanks to ancestors who became incredibly wealthy in the oil business.

 

"Our personal histories compel us to publicly acknowledge what we have known for many years: the extraction and burning of fossil fuels is killing life on our planet. Fossil fuels are a technology of the past — leftovers of a bygone era when we believed we could force our will on nature and disregard the connectivity of all living beings."

"Fossil fuels killed 8.7 million people globally in 2018 – disproportionately impacting Black, Brown, Indigenous, and poor communities,” Getty and Lambert write. “Human lives aren’t the only ones being lost. More than 1 billion sea creatures along the Canadian coast were cooked to death during this summer’s record-breaking heatwave in the Pacific Northwest.

“The latest report of the United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) showed that some climate impacts are already irreversible and that only through immediate, internationally coordinated action can we hope to avoid the most severe consequences. UN Secretary General António Guterres called the report ‘a code red for humanity.’ The terrifying reality is that inaction, or even half-measures, will cost countless lives. "

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/08/fossil-fuel-heirs-urge-end-to-fossil-fuels/

[dercos]

Ai grija ce iti doresti, otelul se produce cu carbune. Inclusiv cel din ''ecologica'' ta masina  electrica.

[Emy D]

Intrebarea mea cu privire la cei care "predica" apocalipsa prin "climate change": 

De ce sunteti atat de ipocriti? Si ma refer strict la "elita"/liderii si personajele de la  Cop26: chiar va durea fundul sa stati pe scaun acasa (ca prostimea) si sa faceti online intalnirea asta? 

 

 

Inteleg. trebuie sa mai bagi niste Tone de CO2 (de care te plangi ca sunt facute de saraci) si sa le arati saracilor ca trebuie sa "buy less, eat less meat, polute less"...

Yep. Ii crede cine-i incalta. 

 

Toata lumea se plange de caldura verii si ca ce mult polueaza masinile astea...dar e bine si frumos la racoare cu AC-ul la maxim. Nais.

 

[cj.Paul]

 

 

Un video usor de digerat de catre ambele tabere, atat de cei ce sunt pro masini electrice, cat si de catre cei ce sunt contra lor.

 

In plus, se vorbeste despre marii poluatori care nu sunt atat de mediatizati precum autoturismele personale, despre motivele pentru care nu e chiar asa de simplu de redus poluarea, dar si despre rolul nostru (dar mai ales al autoritatilor) in toata treaba asta.

 

 

Modificat 10 Noiembrie, 2021 de cj.Paul

[dercos]

COP26: Nu se renunta la carbune, ci vor sa reduca treptat consumul de carbune. Cand baietii din Est iti taie gazul, iti dai seama ca nu rezolvi nimic iarna cu energia solara si eoliana. Ma gandesc ca a fost o miscare strategica, un dus rece, daca vreti, care a scurtcircuitat ambitiile inepte ale UE, legate de Green Deal.

[kolfleading]

Nici o tranzitie nu s-a facut fara a se lovi de diverse piedici pe parcurs.

 

2 hours ago, dercos said:

ambitiile inepte ale UE, legate de Green Deal.

Ineptie este sa arzi combustibili fosili fara sa-ti pese de efecte.

[Dolfin]

Franta se intoarce la energia atomica, a fost reconsiderata ca relativ "curata".

 

Intre timp mastile pe care le poarta oameni in pandemie vor constitui in 3-4 ani una din sursele importante de poluare ale ecosistemelor, este o estimare pe baza datelor de acum si spre deosebire de schimbarile climatice din cauza asa zisei poluari acestea chiar se vor vedea.

Nearly 29,000 Tons of COVID Plastic Now Floats in the Oceans, Study Finds

 

Nici VW nu se alatura acordului de la COP26, nu crede in eliminarea ICE, din mai multe motive.

BMW insa le elaboreaza. 

Mercedes a picat de fraier, deocamdata.

 

BMW won't ditch combustion engine until "poorer countries do their job" on EV infrastructure

 

Citat:

Car brand BMW has blamed the lack of "framework conditions" in less developed parts of the world for its reluctance to replace fossil-fuel cars with electric vehicles.

The company refused to sign a multilateral deal presented at COP26 this week, which saw major automotive manufacturers including Mercedes-Benz, Volvo and Ford commit to selling only electric vehicles (EVs) by 2040, in a bid to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees Celcius.

BMW will not consider similar measures, said the company's head of sustainability strategy Thomas Becker, until countries like Italy, Romania and the Czech Republic have scaled up their EV-charging infrastructure.
....
Currently, Norway and the Netherlands have around seven to nine public charging stations per 1,000 vehicles, compared to the 0.4 in Italy.
According to Becker, this comes down to a lack of "political leadership" from local and national governments.
"These guys just wait until somebody dumps money on them to get the job done," he said. "They won't do it."

[kolfleading]

9 hours ago, Dolfin said:

schimbarile climatice din cauza asa zisei poluari

Eu nu va mai inteleg.

Mai sus ati pus linkuri care confirmau legatura dintre schimbarile climatice si emisiile de gaze cu efect de sera.

[Dolfin]

Cine are masina electrica si vrea sa reduca poluarea trebuie sa circule foarte mult cu ea... 😏

Altfel poluati mai mult fata de cei cu ICE.

Pun intended!

 

Petrol or electric – which is actually greenest?

 

Citat:

An interesting study by Volvo paints a more complex picture, illustrated by the fact its XC40 range offers a genuine like-for-like comparison with ICE, plug-in hybrid and fully electric models all built on shared foundations and in the same factory.

Volvo has taken this opportunity to compare the full lifecycle carbon footprint of each type of XC40 from the raw materials and production processes required to manufacture it, fuelling it and driving it over a projected lifespan of 200,000km (or 124,000 miles) and then disposal at the end.

Shock news?

Building a C40 results in 70 per cent more emissions than making an XC40 with a regular ICE motor, both cars being built on the same platform and sharing many of their parts.

In material and component terms alone the batteries account for nearly a third of the footprint of building a C40 or XC40 Recharge.

 

That means these ‘green’ electric cars...are significant CO2 burden compared with the regular ICE one you could have bought (for a lot less money) instead...

The ‘break even’ point where the ICE car’s increasing CO2 footprint overtakes that of the EV and continues to grow depends on where you source the electricity to charge it up again.
Volvo has published three different figures, according to average global electricity supply, the projected ‘EU28’ (the EU, plus the UK) balance of regular and renewable sources and fully renewable energy.

Over that 124,000-mile lifespan the fully electric C40’s carbon footprint is 15 per cent less than that of a petrol XC40 and the car needs to have covered 68,300 miles before the break-even point.

By the EU28 measure that improves to nearly 30 per cent and 48,000 miles, while if you can charge your C40 purely on renewable energy its lifetime CO2 footprint is half that of the ICE XC40 and break-even comes at just over 30,000 miles.

....

So, while it seems over its lifetime a BEV can prove to have a smaller environmental impact than its ICE equivalent, it’s perhaps not as simple as ‘electric cars are greener’ and much of it comes down to the source of the electricity you’re charging it with.[/bquote]

[Sparkyson]

Hai sa citim si invers: chiar pentru curentul produs relativ murdar in UE + UK, tot e mai curata o masina electrica. Si curentul devine tot mai curent datorita EU28.

Dupa doar 110000 de km (dar mai putin, pentru ca o sa producem curent tot mai curat), mult sub cat sta pe sosele o masina, devine curata, chiar si incarcata pe curent produs murdar. Daca produci noi masini diesel, de exemplu, inseamna sa introduci o masina poluanta pentru urmatorii cel putin 15-20 ani.

 

Stire soc — industria petroliera nu e atat de curata precum spune 🙊: New study reveals real size of crude oil’s carbon footprint

 

Quote

Emissions from crude oil extraction are a significant part of the total emissions of fossil fuels. A new comprehensive study recently published in Science also shows that emissions are far higher than the industry's own estimates.

In the recently published study “Global carbon intensity of crude oil production" (Masnadi et al, Science) the total petroleum well-to-refinery emissions is estimated to be 1,7 Gt CO2 eq, which is 42 per cent higher than the estimations made by the industry and constitute 5 percent of global total emissions. In comparison, total global emissions from aviation is roughly 2.7 percent.  

 

[gigelm5m3]

Ce omit cei care sustin sus si tare ca " voi poluati mai mult cu masina electrica decat...." este ca factorii care polueaza la productia, incarcarea, recliclarea masinii (acumulatorul/bateria ca aici e problema) sunt mult mai usor de controlat/cataliza/ reglementat (cele mai multe fiind in afara oraselor) decat milioanele de DPF-uri, EGR-uri defecte care trec pe sub radar si sunt direct in nasul nostru.

Cat despre comparatia dintre nivelul de poluare al unui ICE vs Electric in care se omite poluarea rezultata in lantul: extractie-rafinare-transport al produselor petroliere.

 

Daca nivelul de poluare generat de productia unei masini electrice este cunoscut azi, asa cum a mentionat colegul Sparkyson, productia de energie electrica migreaza usor, usor catre "green". Aceelasi lucru se intampla si cu tehnologia de reciclare a bateriilor. 

Adica in 5-10 ani articolul de mai sus o sa arate ceva de genul: dupa 20k Km masina electrica devine "verde".

[cristi511]

https://www.g4media.ro/vulcanul-cumbre-vieja-din-arhipelagul-canare-a-emis-in-doua-luni-dioxid-de-sulf-cat-toata-uniunea-europeana-intr-un-an.html

 

Meanwhile...

[Sparkyson]

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/so-emissions-by-world-region-in-million-tonnes:

 

 

E clar ca vulcanii astia au inceput sa tot erupa din 1850 incoace. Sigur e ceva la mijloc 🤔.

Sa le punem dop ca poate reducem emisiile, ca așa nu se mai poate 

[dercos]

@Sparkyson:

Pui un astfel de grafic si te bati in piept cu el, dar omiti lucruri atat de simple, precum catastrofala eruptie a lui Krakatoa din 1883, ce a modificat clima la nivel planetar. Desigur ea nu a generat deloc SO2 suficient sa zgarie macar graficul tau. E drept, poate e trecuta la Oceania, care nu apare deloc in graficul ala, cine stie. Pe langa Krakatoa, vulcanul din Canare e doar o mica fumigena, sa ai un termen de comparatie.

 

[Dolfin]

Ceea ce era anticipat de cativa useri pe acest topic, si pe celalalt din care s-a facut acest spin-off, a venit vremea pentru taxarea masinilor EV in Norvegia, pentru ca poluarea trece la "altele" cand nu se mai incaseaza taxe (bani).

 

Si lectiile Norvegiei o sa fie aplicate si in celelalte tari, pentru ca toti se uita sa invete din greseli.

 

Norway Is Running Out of Gas-Guzzling Cars to Tax

 

Citat:

WHEN IT COMES to sales of electric cars, Norway is in a league of its own.

In September, battery-powered electric vehicles accounted for 77.5 percent of all new cars sold.
That figure makes Norway a world leader by a long way—leapfrogging over the UK, where 15 percent of new car sales were electric as of October, and the US, where that number is just 2.6 percent.
Norway’s electric dream has been credited to a series of tax breaks and other financial carrots that mean brands like Tesla can compete on price with combustion engines.
But these incentives—and their success—have created a unique predicament: Norway is running out of dirty cars to tax.
It’s quite a big problem.

The previous government...—estimated that the popularity of EVs was creating a $2.32 billion hole in the country’s annual revenue. While EVs might be great news for the environment, their rapid success in Norway is now forcing some serious fiscal consternation.
...
In an attempt to claw back lost income, officials are stripping electric cars of special status, sparking fierce debate and concern that the country could jeopardize its goal of selling no new cars with combustion engines by 2025. The toll charge exemption was first to go in 2017. Now, Norway’s government is considering removing a much broader list of incentives as part of ongoing budget negotiations.

There is widespread uncertainty about which taxes will be reintroduced. But the country’s car associations and environmental groups believe the four most likely to make a comeback are taxes for plug-in hybrids, a tax for second-hand EV sales, a tax for “luxury EVs” that cost more than $68,650, and the resurrection of an annual ownership tax for EVs.
...
Lasse Fridstrøm, senior research economist at Oslo’s Institute of Transport Economics, says there is a sense across the political spectrum that it’s time to tax EVs now that they are no longer a novelty. 
...
Norway’s environmentalists say they are not against the idea of taxing EVs so long as taxes for fossil fuel cars stay high, too. But there is concern about the wrong taxes coming too soon. “This could cause major setbacks,” says Hauge. “Reintroducing VAT for cars above 600,000 krone seems like a strange thing to do because those are the cars that are useful” in rural areas where people spend more time on the road—and need to drive EVs over long distances, he says...
 

 

[dercos]

Astea sunt chestiuni elementare, care scapa insa logicii unora.

Ce va fi amuzant este ca, daca in cativa ani apare o noua tehnologie, vom revedea aceeasi exaltare catre noile tehnologii, iar EV-urile vor avea aceeasi soarta cu vehiculele murdare, iar toti proprietarii de EV-uri vor uita brusc ca au condus o masina invechita si poluanta. La fel cum au uitat ca acum doi ani mergeau cu vreun Diesel 🙂

Societatea este una de consum, in care nu conteaza nimic altceva decat banii. Cine crede ca e vorba despre aer curat sau bine general traieste intr-o mare iluzie.

[Sparkyson]

@dercos, nu cred ca e toata lumea la fel de cinica. Pentru unii mai conteaza si viitorul copiilor.

@Dolfin, cred ca postul tau e mai relevant pe celalalt topic, "Mașini electrice - merita sau nu?".

[kolfleading]

13 hours ago, dercos said:

Ce va fi amuzant este ca, daca in cativa ani apare o noua tehnologie, vom revedea aceeasi exaltare catre noile tehnologii, iar EV-urile vor avea aceeasi soarta cu vehiculele murdare, iar toti proprietarii de EV-uri vor uita brusc ca au condus o masina invechita si poluanta. La fel cum au uitat ca acum doi ani mergeau cu vreun Diesel 

O chestiune elementara dar care scapa logicii unora: N-a zis nimeni ca masinile electrice sunt "solutia perfecta" si ca aici se va opri evolutia masinilor. Unii dintre noi intelegem ca tot timpul va fi loc de imbunatatiri, si asta nu este un lucru rau si nici nu este "consumerism si bani".  Asocierea dintre evolutia tehnica si "doar banii conteaza" este una falsa si fortata si fara sens logic.

[Bogdan_wrc]

Don’t Fall For The Myth That Internal Combustion Cars Are Greener Than Batteries Over Their Life - They’re Not